[hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!

Discussion in 'HLDS / Valve Windows newsletter' started by SakeFox, Jan 6, 2009.

  1. SakeFox

    SakeFox Guest

    I posted this in another thread, but it wouldn't be good to steal it or really bring that thread down so i thought i would just make a new one.

    I don't know how many people will post in this or if it will go anywhere, but it's time to make a post to tell valve how we feel. I used to defend and help them, but now it's almost like what's the point.

    quoted from other post
    "you guys haven't realized yet that valve has stopped caring about there
    games? We have been waiting for over a month for a fix for tf2 hell
    there are still some bugs from the beta that they still haven't fixed. I
    used to monitor my little bug list in the forums, but patch after patch
    maybe only 2-3 bugs would actually get fixed i started to realize valve
    doesn't give a crap about how there games run and that became overly
    noticed when they refuse to fix the map change error in TF2 and L4D.

    Valve will not reply to your issue nor do they care. they will not
    reply to us about any other bug. just give up"


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  2. Aaron Rapp

    Aaron Rapp Guest

    Hi SakeFox,

    I don't think that this is the place to post this. Again, this mailing list
    is for information exchanging between server admins. It would be best if you
    posted about your concern on a Valve forum.

    In light of that fact that others will post on this subject here, and I
    can't prevent that....I will say the following:

    Secondly, you should realize that it is just about every company's policy to
    not admit fault. For a company the size of Valve, this is essential. It
    keeps the amount of negative feedback from reviewers and writers alike, down
    to a minimum...which gives the rest of us the illusion of "a good company".
    Let me assure of this....they are listening. They take everything we say
    here or elsewhere and it gets put into an excel spreadsheet. In their weekly
    meetings, they discuss each item and prioritize it. Unfortunately, their
    position on each item might be different from yours and yours may be
    different from mine. One thing you learn very quickly, in this business, is
    that you will never make everyone happy. You have to make the most of the
    resources you have at the moment.

    That's all I can say on that. I hope you understand. It's hard to see the
    entire other side of the river until you're actually standing over there.

    Regards,

    Aaron Rapp

    -----Original Message-----
    From: hlds-bounces (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com
    [mailto:hlds-bounces (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of SakeFox
    Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 9:34 PM
    To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
    Subject: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!

    I posted this in another thread, but it wouldn't be good to steal it or
    really bring that thread down so i thought i would just make a new one.

    I don't know how many people will post in this or if it will go anywhere,
    but it's time to make a post to tell valve how we feel. I used to defend and
    help them, but now it's almost like what's the point.

    quoted from other post
    "you guys haven't realized yet that valve has stopped caring about there
    games? We have been waiting for over a month for a fix for tf2 hell
    there are still some bugs from the beta that they still haven't fixed. I
    used to monitor my little bug list in the forums, but patch after patch
    maybe only 2-3 bugs would actually get fixed i started to realize valve
    doesn't give a crap about how there games run and that became overly
    noticed when they refuse to fix the map change error in TF2 and L4D.

    Valve will not reply to your issue nor do they care. they will not
    reply to us about any other bug. just give up"


    _______________________________________________
    To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
    please visit:
    http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds


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  3. Mike Stiehm

    Mike Stiehm Guest

    Thank you..

    Really month after month it's the same complaints about Valve yet month
    after month nothing changes.. We really don't need 15 people saying the same
    thing over and over and over...

    I understand that this is a serious issue and it was brought up I just don't
    see what complaining over and over about the same thing will do?

    I'm with you guys I'm just sick of the same emails just from a different
    person day after day. I would like this list to get back to helping people
    with the issues that was can address without valve...


    -----Original Message-----
    From: hlds-bounces (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com
    [mailto:hlds-bounces (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Aaron Rapp
    Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 11:51 PM
    To: 'Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list'
    Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!

    Hi SakeFox,

    I don't think that this is the place to post this. Again, this mailing list
    is for information exchanging between server admins. It would be best if you
    posted about your concern on a Valve forum.

    In light of that fact that others will post on this subject here, and I
    can't prevent that....I will say the following:

    Secondly, you should realize that it is just about every company's policy to
    not admit fault. For a company the size of Valve, this is essential. It
    keeps the amount of negative feedback from reviewers and writers alike, down
    to a minimum...which gives the rest of us the illusion of "a good company".
    Let me assure of this....they are listening. They take everything we say
    here or elsewhere and it gets put into an excel spreadsheet. In their weekly
    meetings, they discuss each item and prioritize it. Unfortunately, their
    position on each item might be different from yours and yours may be
    different from mine. One thing you learn very quickly, in this business, is
    that you will never make everyone happy. You have to make the most of the
    resources you have at the moment.

    That's all I can say on that. I hope you understand. It's hard to see the
    entire other side of the river until you're actually standing over there.

    Regards,

    Aaron Rapp

    -----Original Message-----
    From: hlds-bounces (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com
    [mailto:hlds-bounces (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of SakeFox
    Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 9:34 PM
    To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
    Subject: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!

    I posted this in another thread, but it wouldn't be good to steal it or
    really bring that thread down so i thought i would just make a new one.

    I don't know how many people will post in this or if it will go anywhere,
    but it's time to make a post to tell valve how we feel. I used to defend and
    help them, but now it's almost like what's the point.

    quoted from other post
    "you guys haven't realized yet that valve has stopped caring about there
    games? We have been waiting for over a month for a fix for tf2 hell
    there are still some bugs from the beta that they still haven't fixed. I
    used to monitor my little bug list in the forums, but patch after patch
    maybe only 2-3 bugs would actually get fixed i started to realize valve
    doesn't give a crap about how there games run and that became overly
    noticed when they refuse to fix the map change error in TF2 and L4D.

    Valve will not reply to your issue nor do they care. they will not
    reply to us about any other bug. just give up"


    _______________________________________________
    To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
    please visit:
    http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds


    _______________________________________________
    To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
    please visit:
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  4. Blood Letter

    Blood Letter Guest

    Yeah, let's bend over and take, while still supporting them

    > From: mikestiehm (AT) gmail (DOT) com
    > To: hlds (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com
    > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 00:50:56 -0600
    > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
    >
    > Thank you..
    >
    > Really month after month it's the same complaints about Valve yet month
    > after month nothing changes.. We really don't need 15 people saying the same
    > thing over and over and over...
    >
    > I understand that this is a serious issue and it was brought up I just don't
    > see what complaining over and over about the same thing will do?
    >
    > I'm with you guys I'm just sick of the same emails just from a different
    > person day after day. I would like this list to get back to helping people
    > with the issues that was can address without valve...
    >
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: hlds-bounces (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com
    > [mailto:hlds-bounces (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Aaron Rapp
    > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 11:51 PM
    > To: 'Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list'
    > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
    >
    > Hi SakeFox,
    >
    > I don't think that this is the place to post this. Again, this mailing list
    > is for information exchanging between server admins. It would be best if you
    > posted about your concern on a Valve forum.
    >
    > In light of that fact that others will post on this subject here, and I
    > can't prevent that....I will say the following:
    >
    > Secondly, you should realize that it is just about every company's policy to
    > not admit fault. For a company the size of Valve, this is essential. It
    > keeps the amount of negative feedback from reviewers and writers alike, down
    > to a minimum...which gives the rest of us the illusion of "a good company".
    > Let me assure of this....they are listening. They take everything we say
    > here or elsewhere and it gets put into an excel spreadsheet. In their weekly
    > meetings, they discuss each item and prioritize it. Unfortunately, their
    > position on each item might be different from yours and yours may be
    > different from mine. One thing you learn very quickly, in this business, is
    > that you will never make everyone happy. You have to make the most of the
    > resources you have at the moment.
    >
    > That's all I can say on that. I hope you understand. It's hard to see the
    > entire other side of the river until you're actually standing over there.
    >
    > Regards,
    >
    > Aaron Rapp
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: hlds-bounces (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com
    > [mailto:hlds-bounces (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of SakeFox
    > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 9:34 PM
    > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
    > Subject: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
    >
    > I posted this in another thread, but it wouldn't be good to steal it or
    > really bring that thread down so i thought i would just make a new one.
    >
    > I don't know how many people will post in this or if it will go anywhere,
    > but it's time to make a post to tell valve how we feel. I used to defend and
    > help them, but now it's almost like what's the point.
    >
    > quoted from other post
    > "you guys haven't realized yet that valve has stopped caring about there
    > games? We have been waiting for over a month for a fix for tf2 hell
    > there are still some bugs from the beta that they still haven't fixed. I
    > used to monitor my little bug list in the forums, but patch after patch
    > maybe only 2-3 bugs would actually get fixed i started to realize valve
    > doesn't give a crap about how there games run and that became overly
    > noticed when they refuse to fix the map change error in TF2 and L4D.
    >
    > Valve will not reply to your issue nor do they care. they will not
    > reply to us about any other bug. just give up"
    >
    >
    > _______________________________________________
    > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
    > please visit:
    > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
    >
    >
    > _______________________________________________
    > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
    > please visit:
    > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
    >
    >
    > _______________________________________________
    > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
    > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds


    _________________________________________________________________
    It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster.
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  5. Arg!

    Arg! Guest

    I bet they dont even read this any more given all the threads like this.
    Even after we were all asked very nicely to desist.

    Can we please turn this into a moderated forum.

    On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 7:08 PM, Blood Letter <bw_bloodletter (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>wrote:

    >
    > Yeah, let's bend over and take, while still supporting them
    >
    > > From: mikestiehm (AT) gmail (DOT) com
    > > To: hlds (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com
    > > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 00:50:56 -0600
    > > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
    > >
    > > Thank you..
    > >
    > > Really month after month it's the same complaints about Valve yet month
    > > after month nothing changes.. We really don't need 15 people saying the

    > same
    > > thing over and over and over...
    > >
    > > I understand that this is a serious issue and it was brought up I just

    > don't
    > > see what complaining over and over about the same thing will do?
    > >
    > > I'm with you guys I'm just sick of the same emails just from a different
    > > person day after day. I would like this list to get back to helping

    > people
    > > with the issues that was can address without valve...
    > >
    > >
    > > -----Original Message-----
    > > From: hlds-bounces (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com
    > > [mailto:hlds-bounces (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Aaron Rapp
    > > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 11:51 PM
    > > To: 'Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list'
    > > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
    > >
    > > Hi SakeFox,
    > >
    > > I don't think that this is the place to post this. Again, this mailing

    > list
    > > is for information exchanging between server admins. It would be best if

    > you
    > > posted about your concern on a Valve forum.
    > >
    > > In light of that fact that others will post on this subject here, and I
    > > can't prevent that....I will say the following:
    > >
    > > Secondly, you should realize that it is just about every company's policy

    > to
    > > not admit fault. For a company the size of Valve, this is essential. It
    > > keeps the amount of negative feedback from reviewers and writers alike,

    > down
    > > to a minimum...which gives the rest of us the illusion of "a good

    > company".
    > > Let me assure of this....they are listening. They take everything we say
    > > here or elsewhere and it gets put into an excel spreadsheet. In their

    > weekly
    > > meetings, they discuss each item and prioritize it. Unfortunately, their
    > > position on each item might be different from yours and yours may be
    > > different from mine. One thing you learn very quickly, in this business,

    > is
    > > that you will never make everyone happy. You have to make the most of the
    > > resources you have at the moment.
    > >
    > > That's all I can say on that. I hope you understand. It's hard to see the
    > > entire other side of the river until you're actually standing over there.
    > >
    > > Regards,
    > >
    > > Aaron Rapp
    > >
    > > -----Original Message-----
    > > From: hlds-bounces (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com
    > > [mailto:hlds-bounces (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of SakeFox
    > > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 9:34 PM
    > > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
    > > Subject: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
    > >
    > > I posted this in another thread, but it wouldn't be good to steal it or
    > > really bring that thread down so i thought i would just make a new one.
    > >
    > > I don't know how many people will post in this or if it will go anywhere,
    > > but it's time to make a post to tell valve how we feel. I used to defend

    > and
    > > help them, but now it's almost like what's the point.
    > >
    > > quoted from other post
    > > "you guys haven't realized yet that valve has stopped caring about there
    > > games? We have been waiting for over a month for a fix for tf2 hell
    > > there are still some bugs from the beta that they still haven't fixed. I
    > > used to monitor my little bug list in the forums, but patch after patch
    > > maybe only 2-3 bugs would actually get fixed i started to realize valve
    > > doesn't give a crap about how there games run and that became overly
    > > noticed when they refuse to fix the map change error in TF2 and L4D.
    > >
    > > Valve will not reply to your issue nor do they care. they will not
    > > reply to us about any other bug. just give up"
    > >
    > >
    > > _______________________________________________
    > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
    > > please visit:
    > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
    > >
    > >
    > > _______________________________________________
    > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
    > > please visit:
    > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
    > >
    > >
    > > _______________________________________________
    > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,

    > please visit:
    > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds

    >
    > _________________________________________________________________
    > It's the same Hotmail(R). If by "same" you mean up to 70% faster.
    >
    > http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_122008
    > _______________________________________________
    > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
    > please visit:
    > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
    >

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  6. raydan

    raydan Guest

    i ask valve add hud message display back into Counter-Strike Source about 1
    year, they haven't do anything, just add few line into ClientScheme.res, how
    difficult?

    but Team Fortress 2 include hud message display, why Counter-Strike Source
    can't, is it fair?
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  7. Olly

    Olly Guest

    Yes it is fair if you have to ask.
    Do you know how much developers get paid? - It wouldn't be worth the money
    for them to pay one developer to work on this for an hour just so you can
    have something that was never in the release.

    You have paid for CS:S (hopefully) its provided 'as-is' anything extra that
    valve decides to add is a bonus. People have gone this long without extras
    in cs:s why should they change something now, just so you can bitch that
    there is something wrong with the new functionality.

    2009/1/6 raydan <raydanhk (AT) gmail (DOT) com>

    > i ask valve add hud message display back into Counter-Strike Source about 1
    > year, they haven't do anything, just add few line into ClientScheme.res,
    > how
    > difficult?
    >
    > but Team Fortress 2 include hud message display, why Counter-Strike Source
    > can't, is it fair?
    > _______________________________________________
    > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
    > please visit:
    > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
    >

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  8. raydan

    raydan Guest

    ya, HUD display something wrong in CS:S, but not in TF2 and HL2:DM

    something wrong in old engine(HL2:DM,CS:S)?
    something wrong in famous game(CS:S)?

    if valve remove HUD display COMPLETELY from server side & client side
    forever, i want to see how many plugin will die
    and i never say HUD display again. i don't think valve will do that.

    2009/1/6 Olly <olig15 (AT) gmail (DOT) com>

    > Yes it is fair if you have to ask.
    > Do you know how much developers get paid? - It wouldn't be worth the money
    > for them to pay one developer to work on this for an hour just so you can
    > have something that was never in the release.
    >
    > You have paid for CS:S (hopefully) its provided 'as-is' anything extra that
    > valve decides to add is a bonus. People have gone this long without extras
    > in cs:s why should they change something now, just so you can bitch that
    > there is something wrong with the new functionality.
    >
    > 2009/1/6 raydan <raydanhk (AT) gmail (DOT) com>
    >
    > > i ask valve add hud message display back into Counter-Strike Source about

    > 1
    > > year, they haven't do anything, just add few line into ClientScheme.res,
    > > how
    > > difficult?
    > >
    > > but Team Fortress 2 include hud message display, why Counter-Strike

    > Source
    > > can't, is it fair?
    > > _______________________________________________
    > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
    > > please visit:
    > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
    > >

    > _______________________________________________
    > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
    > please visit:
    > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
    >

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  9. Richard Eid

    Richard Eid Guest

    If Valve doesn't do everything we say, they suck. If Valve doesn't fix
    everything now, they suck. If Valve doesn't kiss our asses every second of
    every day, they suck. They don't care, they won't fix this, they refuse to
    fix that. All they want is our money.

    You all sound like a broken record. And worse than that, you have no lives
    outside of this thing we have here. Did anyone stop to think that since
    they all busted their asses for who knows how long getting Left 4 Dead out
    the door, while providing updates to TF2 the whole time, that maybe...just
    maybe, they'd want to take a break for a little while during the holidays?
    You know...so they could spend time with their families.

    Honestly, since release of TOB, there have been a relentless amount of
    updates to their products. In the time that has passed from TOB until now,
    the only people being neglected were probably most of the families of Valve
    employees. Does anyone feel they deserve a little break?

    They're ignoring us? Really? You think so? Does anyone here subscribe to
    HLCoders? A little civility goes a long way. In my opinion, Valve isn't
    ignoring this list, they just don't want to reply. I swear, this list =
    SPUF sometimes. Any two words they say are held against them forever.

    I know that a lot of kids subscribe to this list, so it would be difficult
    for a lot of you to understand, but there is such a thing as priorities in
    life. Gaming is not as high on that list once you have a family to take
    care of and a boss to answer to. And you are not the boss of anyone at
    Valve.

    Valve knows about the problems, obviously. You all keep saying the same
    things over and over. Give them a break. Just because you didn't have
    anything to do for the past couple of weeks doesn't mean they had to sit
    around and hop on every little problem we have. What happens when updates
    are released to address the current existing issues? Are you going to
    apologize for acting like a bunch of assholes or are you going to feel
    stupid for saying things like, "Valve doesn't care about their games
    anymore"? Wait...I know. 90% of you will say, "Finally." 5% won't be
    happy no matter what. 4% will bring up another issue that Valve is
    ignoring. And 1% will say, "Thank you."

    Yes, we paid money for the game. But $50 does not give you the right to
    treat the people trying to help you like shit. Sometimes the problems that
    you claim are easy fixes may not be so easy to fix. And since most of you
    know for a fact that it's an easy fix, there's always jobs (AT) valvesoftware (DOT) com
    ..

    Grow up. They are aware of the problems. Like Aaron said, there are your
    priorities and then there are business priorities. Just because the issues
    high on your list may not be high on theirs doesn't mean they're ignoring
    you. But then, it would be stupid of me to assume that most of you would
    understand any of that, especially given your attitudes over the past few
    months.

    -Richard Eid
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  10. Well said Richard!

    I really wouldnt be suprised if we got an almighty mother of an update to
    l4d fairly soon!

    On 1/6/09, Richard Eid <richard.eid (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:
    >
    > If Valve doesn't do everything we say, they suck. If Valve doesn't fix
    > everything now, they suck. If Valve doesn't kiss our asses every second of
    > every day, they suck. They don't care, they won't fix this, they refuse to
    > fix that. All they want is our money.
    >
    > You all sound like a broken record. And worse than that, you have no lives
    > outside of this thing we have here. Did anyone stop to think that since
    > they all busted their asses for who knows how long getting Left 4 Dead out
    > the door, while providing updates to TF2 the whole time, that maybe...just
    > maybe, they'd want to take a break for a little while during the holidays?
    > You know...so they could spend time with their families.
    >
    > Honestly, since release of TOB, there have been a relentless amount of
    > updates to their products. In the time that has passed from TOB until now,
    > the only people being neglected were probably most of the families of Valve
    > employees. Does anyone feel they deserve a little break?
    >
    > They're ignoring us? Really? You think so? Does anyone here subscribe to
    > HLCoders? A little civility goes a long way. In my opinion, Valve isn't
    > ignoring this list, they just don't want to reply. I swear, this list =
    > SPUF sometimes. Any two words they say are held against them forever.
    >
    > I know that a lot of kids subscribe to this list, so it would be difficult
    > for a lot of you to understand, but there is such a thing as priorities in
    > life. Gaming is not as high on that list once you have a family to take
    > care of and a boss to answer to. And you are not the boss of anyone at
    > Valve.
    >
    > Valve knows about the problems, obviously. You all keep saying the same
    > things over and over. Give them a break. Just because you didn't have
    > anything to do for the past couple of weeks doesn't mean they had to sit
    > around and hop on every little problem we have. What happens when updates
    > are released to address the current existing issues? Are you going to
    > apologize for acting like a bunch of assholes or are you going to feel
    > stupid for saying things like, "Valve doesn't care about their games
    > anymore"? Wait...I know. 90% of you will say, "Finally." 5% won't be
    > happy no matter what. 4% will bring up another issue that Valve is
    > ignoring. And 1% will say, "Thank you."
    >
    > Yes, we paid money for the game. But $50 does not give you the right to
    > treat the people trying to help you like shit. Sometimes the problems that
    > you claim are easy fixes may not be so easy to fix. And since most of you
    > know for a fact that it's an easy fix, there's always
    > jobs (AT) valvesoftware (DOT) com
    > .
    >
    > Grow up. They are aware of the problems. Like Aaron said, there are your
    > priorities and then there are business priorities. Just because the issues
    > high on your list may not be high on theirs doesn't mean they're ignoring
    > you. But then, it would be stupid of me to assume that most of you would
    > understand any of that, especially given your attitudes over the past few
    > months.
    >
    >
    > -Richard Eid
    >
    > _______________________________________________
    > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
    > please visit:
    > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
    >

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  11. It's not that at all, at least not for me. Flagrant generalizations of the entire list? Hyperbole.

    Bugs have severity. In the software development industry, you have "Minor" bugs (cosmetic, no functionality broken), Serious bugs (Limited functionality) and Show Stoppers (like the kind of bugs that wipe out an entire server's population).

    I've already stated that Valve are visionaries in this field. And I assure you - I have a life outside of this list :)

    We don't need to stop to think about Christmas when our servers are crapping out left and right because of Valve's lack of QA. This should have been caught and fixed long before the christmas season.

    And I disagree with you on us not being the boss of Valve. We pay for their products. Without us to support them, Valve is doomed. *WE ARE THEIR BOSSES* as it is OUR money that powers their company. As such, I don't feel they are entitled to any such "break" when a huge problem like this exists.

    If it were MY code at MY job dropping client connections like this, I would be under immense pressure to fix it. And I would be very wise to acknowledge this and move forward if I want to KEEP my job.

    But what do I know. I'm just some kid who's got a wife, 3 kids and a $4400 mortgage. It's not like *I* matter!

    -----Original Message-----
    From: hlds-bounces (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-bounces (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Richard Eid
    Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 11:13 AM
    To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
    Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!

    If Valve doesn't do everything we say, they suck. If Valve doesn't fix
    everything now, they suck. If Valve doesn't kiss our asses every second of
    every day, they suck. They don't care, they won't fix this, they refuse to
    fix that. All they want is our money.

    You all sound like a broken record. And worse than that, you have no lives
    outside of this thing we have here. Did anyone stop to think that since
    they all busted their asses for who knows how long getting Left 4 Dead out
    the door, while providing updates to TF2 the whole time, that maybe...just
    maybe, they'd want to take a break for a little while during the holidays?
    You know...so they could spend time with their families.

    Honestly, since release of TOB, there have been a relentless amount of
    updates to their products. In the time that has passed from TOB until now,
    the only people being neglected were probably most of the families of Valve
    employees. Does anyone feel they deserve a little break?

    They're ignoring us? Really? You think so? Does anyone here subscribe to
    HLCoders? A little civility goes a long way. In my opinion, Valve isn't
    ignoring this list, they just don't want to reply. I swear, this list =
    SPUF sometimes. Any two words they say are held against them forever.

    I know that a lot of kids subscribe to this list, so it would be difficult
    for a lot of you to understand, but there is such a thing as priorities in
    life. Gaming is not as high on that list once you have a family to take
    care of and a boss to answer to. And you are not the boss of anyone at
    Valve.

    Valve knows about the problems, obviously. You all keep saying the same
    things over and over. Give them a break. Just because you didn't have
    anything to do for the past couple of weeks doesn't mean they had to sit
    around and hop on every little problem we have. What happens when updates
    are released to address the current existing issues? Are you going to
    apologize for acting like a bunch of assholes or are you going to feel
    stupid for saying things like, "Valve doesn't care about their games
    anymore"? Wait...I know. 90% of you will say, "Finally." 5% won't be
    happy no matter what. 4% will bring up another issue that Valve is
    ignoring. And 1% will say, "Thank you."

    Yes, we paid money for the game. But $50 does not give you the right to
    treat the people trying to help you like shit. Sometimes the problems that
    you claim are easy fixes may not be so easy to fix. And since most of you
    know for a fact that it's an easy fix, there's always jobs (AT) valvesoftware (DOT) com
    ..

    Grow up. They are aware of the problems. Like Aaron said, there are your
    priorities and then there are business priorities. Just because the issues
    high on your list may not be high on theirs doesn't mean they're ignoring
    you. But then, it would be stupid of me to assume that most of you would
    understand any of that, especially given your attitudes over the past few
    months.

    -Richard Eid
    _______________________________________________
    To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
    http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds

    _______________________________________________
    To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
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  12. SakeFox

    SakeFox Guest

    some of the minor bugs i can deal with. i know they ignore stuff they
    think people will just ignore after time, look at CSS. but there are
    massive game killing bugs in L4D and TF2 that they are just completely
    ignoring. Map change timeout. this should have been fixed the 1
    1/2-2months ago this was discovered and for L4D the hunter, melee & team
    balance bugs should have been fixed when they were discovered at launch.
    These bugs kill the game completely.

    Karl Weckstrom wrote:
    > It's not that at all, at least not for me. Flagrant generalizations of the entire list? Hyperbole.
    >
    > Bugs have severity. In the software development industry, you have "Minor" bugs (cosmetic, no functionality broken), Serious bugs (Limited functionality) and Show Stoppers (like the kind of bugs that wipe out an entire server's population).
    >
    > I've already stated that Valve are visionaries in this field. And I assure you - I have a life outside of this list :)
    >
    > We don't need to stop to think about Christmas when our servers are crapping out left and right because of Valve's lack of QA. This should have been caught and fixed long before the christmas season.
    >
    > And I disagree with you on us not being the boss of Valve. We pay for their products. Without us to support them, Valve is doomed. *WE ARE THEIR BOSSES* as it is OUR money that powers their company. As such, I don't feel they are entitled to any such "break" when a huge problem like this exists.
    >
    > If it were MY code at MY job dropping client connections like this, I would be under immense pressure to fix it. And I would be very wise to acknowledge this and move forward if I want to KEEP my job.
    >
    > But what do I know. I'm just some kid who's got a wife, 3 kids and a $4400 mortgage. It's not like *I* matter!
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: hlds-bounces (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-bounces (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Richard Eid
    > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 11:13 AM
    > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
    > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
    >
    > If Valve doesn't do everything we say, they suck. If Valve doesn't fix
    > everything now, they suck. If Valve doesn't kiss our asses every second of
    > every day, they suck. They don't care, they won't fix this, they refuse to
    > fix that. All they want is our money.
    >
    > You all sound like a broken record. And worse than that, you have no lives
    > outside of this thing we have here. Did anyone stop to think that since
    > they all busted their asses for who knows how long getting Left 4 Dead out
    > the door, while providing updates to TF2 the whole time, that maybe...just
    > maybe, they'd want to take a break for a little while during the holidays?
    > You know...so they could spend time with their families.
    >
    > Honestly, since release of TOB, there have been a relentless amount of
    > updates to their products. In the time that has passed from TOB until now,
    > the only people being neglected were probably most of the families of Valve
    > employees. Does anyone feel they deserve a little break?
    >
    > They're ignoring us? Really? You think so? Does anyone here subscribe to
    > HLCoders? A little civility goes a long way. In my opinion, Valve isn't
    > ignoring this list, they just don't want to reply. I swear, this list =
    > SPUF sometimes. Any two words they say are held against them forever.
    >
    > I know that a lot of kids subscribe to this list, so it would be difficult
    > for a lot of you to understand, but there is such a thing as priorities in
    > life. Gaming is not as high on that list once you have a family to take
    > care of and a boss to answer to. And you are not the boss of anyone at
    > Valve.
    >
    > Valve knows about the problems, obviously. You all keep saying the same
    > things over and over. Give them a break. Just because you didn't have
    > anything to do for the past couple of weeks doesn't mean they had to sit
    > around and hop on every little problem we have. What happens when updates
    > are released to address the current existing issues? Are you going to
    > apologize for acting like a bunch of assholes or are you going to feel
    > stupid for saying things like, "Valve doesn't care about their games
    > anymore"? Wait...I know. 90% of you will say, "Finally." 5% won't be
    > happy no matter what. 4% will bring up another issue that Valve is
    > ignoring. And 1% will say, "Thank you."
    >
    > Yes, we paid money for the game. But $50 does not give you the right to
    > treat the people trying to help you like shit. Sometimes the problems that
    > you claim are easy fixes may not be so easy to fix. And since most of you
    > know for a fact that it's an easy fix, there's always jobs (AT) valvesoftware (DOT) com
    > .
    >
    > Grow up. They are aware of the problems. Like Aaron said, there are your
    > priorities and then there are business priorities. Just because the issues
    > high on your list may not be high on theirs doesn't mean they're ignoring
    > you. But then, it would be stupid of me to assume that most of you would
    > understand any of that, especially given your attitudes over the past few
    > months.
    >
    > -Richard Eid
    > _______________________________________________
    > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
    > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
    >
    > _______________________________________________
    > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
    > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
    >
    >
    >


    _______________________________________________
    To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
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  13. Blood Letter

    Blood Letter Guest

    If Valve completely ignores server operators who provide free servers, without which their games would be useless, they suck.

    If Valve lets long standing bugs, exploits, and security issues go unattended while focusing only on the latest content update + free weekend, they clearly prioritize sales over customers.

    I don't know about Valve's office, but if something goes wrong with a system at my office, even on Christmas day, we respond to it, and come into the office if necessary. If there are fires wreaking havoc with the power grid and people are being evacuated from their homes, we coordinate to make sure our servers are backed up, the backups are offsite, and the servers are safe.

    If someone at Valve wants a break, they can take vacation days. Do they only have 3 guys, and each only does 1 thing? I hope not. Any company worth it's salt knows you need redundancy in your mind share.

    Valve IS ignoring this list, by not replying. They get torn apart because they never respond to important issues, they're always late, and they never, EVER, provide clear and complete answers, let alone any semblance of documentation.

    Even if I were a child, I would still be a paying customer. If you're saying Valve gets a pass because gaming is not a priority in life, then you don't understand a single thing about having a job. If your job is to make games, you do that. If your job is to deliver mail, you do that. Working in a particular job sector does not give you the right to slack off.

    If Valve fixes everything and provides complete and correct documentation, then they get support and sales. Going from an F to an A doesn't change the fact that you still had an F.

    No one is treating Valve like shit. We are simply demanding we get some support, some documentation, and some communication. We get none of those things. Being a customer DOES give you the right to expect a certain level of quality and service from the business you are patronizing.

    If Valve's priorities continue to diverge from what so many of us expect, that's fine. They'll just lose our money and our support. Let's be clear here - server admins are supporting Valve, not the other way around. I'm sorry I can't apply for a job at Valve, I already have a job of my own. I can't be programming for everyone in the world, can I? Regardless, I wouldn't want to work in an office where a complete lack of customer support gets a passing grade.

    Valve's lack of support and communication is indefensible to anyone with even a remote knowledge of programming and software development.

    > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:12:41 -0500
    > From: richard.eid (AT) gmail (DOT) com
    > To: hlds (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com
    > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
    >
    > If Valve doesn't do everything we say, they suck. If Valve doesn't fix
    > everything now, they suck. If Valve doesn't kiss our asses every second of
    > every day, they suck. They don't care, they won't fix this, they refuse to
    > fix that. All they want is our money.
    >
    > You all sound like a broken record. And worse than that, you have no lives
    > outside of this thing we have here. Did anyone stop to think that since
    > they all busted their asses for who knows how long getting Left 4 Dead out
    > the door, while providing updates to TF2 the whole time, that maybe...just
    > maybe, they'd want to take a break for a little while during the holidays?
    > You know...so they could spend time with their families.
    >
    > Honestly, since release of TOB, there have been a relentless amount of
    > updates to their products. In the time that has passed from TOB until now,
    > the only people being neglected were probably most of the families of Valve
    > employees. Does anyone feel they deserve a little break?
    >
    > They're ignoring us? Really? You think so? Does anyone here subscribe to
    > HLCoders? A little civility goes a long way. In my opinion, Valve isn't
    > ignoring this list, they just don't want to reply. I swear, this list =
    > SPUF sometimes. Any two words they say are held against them forever.
    >
    > I know that a lot of kids subscribe to this list, so it would be difficult
    > for a lot of you to understand, but there is such a thing as priorities in
    > life. Gaming is not as high on that list once you have a family to take
    > care of and a boss to answer to. And you are not the boss of anyone at
    > Valve.
    >
    > Valve knows about the problems, obviously. You all keep saying the same
    > things over and over. Give them a break. Just because you didn't have
    > anything to do for the past couple of weeks doesn't mean they had to sit
    > around and hop on every little problem we have. What happens when updates
    > are released to address the current existing issues? Are you going to
    > apologize for acting like a bunch of assholes or are you going to feel
    > stupid for saying things like, "Valve doesn't care about their games
    > anymore"? Wait...I know. 90% of you will say, "Finally." 5% won't be
    > happy no matter what. 4% will bring up another issue that Valve is
    > ignoring. And 1% will say, "Thank you."
    >
    > Yes, we paid money for the game. But $50 does not give you the right to
    > treat the people trying to help you like shit. Sometimes the problems that
    > you claim are easy fixes may not be so easy to fix. And since most of you
    > know for a fact that it's an easy fix, there's always jobs (AT) valvesoftware (DOT) com
    > .
    >
    > Grow up. They are aware of the problems. Like Aaron said, there are your
    > priorities and then there are business priorities. Just because the issues
    > high on your list may not be high on theirs doesn't mean they're ignoring
    > you. But then, it would be stupid of me to assume that most of you would
    > understand any of that, especially given your attitudes over the past few
    > months.
    >
    > -Richard Eid
    > _______________________________________________
    > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
    > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds


    _________________________________________________________________
    It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster.
    http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_122008
    _______________________________________________
    To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
    http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
     
  14. The problem is that they add more bugs than they fix, I don't think
    they test updates at all. It sad since TF2 was so polished in beta and
    then there has been a lot of half bad changes and a bunch of bugs.
    Some examples:

    Since the recent engi update:
    *Flame/backburn attack animation never stops unless you switch weapon
    so it looks like you are running around with a big vibrator. Very
    annoying and I don't understand how these problems can get in the
    game, shipped and then not even fixed. Same for the other pyro bug
    below.

    *Teleporters looks like they are still working when the exit is destroyed.

    *The killcam sound is often missing and the game does not go quiet
    while showing it anymore.


    Since big pyro update:
    *Pyro animation never starts at the class selection screen. He is just
    standing there. How could you guys not have seen this for so long?

    *All primary weapon unlocks (even in heavy and medic update) got
    really ugly models. No, I'm not talking about the design. I play the
    game at the highest settings and mat_picmip -3 and the game is
    BEAUTIFUL, except for the bb, kk and slowgun (in that order) that look
    HORRIBLE. While this is probably not technically a bug I consider it
    as one because it drags the game down.

    Since big heavy update:
    *Sandvich taunts do not play unless you spam voice commands while the
    animation plays.

    *When you are killed in the final cart explosion an (random?) enemy
    will often get an assist or kill on you (I don't know which) and you
    see a killcam up in the air that shows… nothing at all.


    Since somewhere on the road:
    *A real showstopper; fake crits. I get more fake crits than I get real
    crits. I think it only happen with hitscan weapons and it happens all
    the time for heavy's and I mean all the time.
    It looks and sounds just like crits, but there is no "critical hit"
    text above the enemies. It is so bad I actually get happily surprised
    when playing heavy and people actually die when I crit. It only
    applies to random crits, kk it not affected.

    *And another really bad problem: Ambient sounds play when it should
    not. Often happens when you die or spawn for the first time. Playing
    Well while listening to the BLIP BLIP BLIP from the computers above
    the flag/final point at full volume everywhere on the map will drive
    anyone mad. Only fix is to rejoin or use snd_restart, but how many
    players know that? Besides it has bad side effects, like removing the
    sounds completely or making them play at other places where they
    should not be.

    *And a third one: Problems caused by lag. Mostly invisible players and
    cart indication goes away. Actually, the cart indicator ALWAYS goes
    away, you are very lucky if you can play a whole game of goldrush
    without losing it because every time there is a new round there is a
    high risk it will disappear. Only workaround is to rejoin or start
    recording a demo (!) because it apparently sync the game again or
    something, something that TF2 should be doing by itself anyway.


    To name a few...


    On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 6:34 AM, SakeFox <sakefox (AT) kingdomsend (DOT) com> wrote:
    > I posted this in another thread, but it wouldn't be good to steal it or really bring that thread down so i thought i would just make a new one.
    >
    > I don't know how many people will post in this or if it will go anywhere, but it's time to make a post to tell valve how we feel. I used to defend and help them, but now it's almost like what's the point.
    >
    > quoted from other post
    > "you guys haven't realized yet that valve has stopped caring about there
    > games? We have been waiting for over a month for a fix for tf2 hell
    > there are still some bugs from the beta that they still haven't fixed. I
    > used to monitor my little bug list in the forums, but patch after patch
    > maybe only 2-3 bugs would actually get fixed i started to realize valve
    > doesn't give a crap about how there games run and that became overly
    > noticed when they refuse to fix the map change error in TF2 and L4D.
    >
    > Valve will not reply to your issue nor do they care. they will not
    > reply to us about any other bug. just give up"
    >
    >
    > _______________________________________________
    > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
    > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
    >


    _______________________________________________
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  15. Now THAT is what I consider "Well said".


    -----Original Message-----
    From: hlds-bounces (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-bounces (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Blood Letter
    Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 11:50 AM
    To: hlds (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com
    Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!


    If Valve completely ignores server operators who provide free servers, without which their games would be useless, they suck.

    If Valve lets long standing bugs, exploits, and security issues go unattended while focusing only on the latest content update + free weekend, they clearly prioritize sales over customers.

    I don't know about Valve's office, but if something goes wrong with a system at my office, even on Christmas day, we respond to it, and come into the office if necessary. If there are fires wreaking havoc with the power grid and people are being evacuated from their homes, we coordinate to make sure our servers are backed up, the backups are offsite, and the servers are safe.

    If someone at Valve wants a break, they can take vacation days. Do they only have 3 guys, and each only does 1 thing? I hope not. Any company worth it's salt knows you need redundancy in your mind share.

    Valve IS ignoring this list, by not replying. They get torn apart because they never respond to important issues, they're always late, and they never, EVER, provide clear and complete answers, let alone any semblance of documentation.

    Even if I were a child, I would still be a paying customer. If you're saying Valve gets a pass because gaming is not a priority in life, then you don't understand a single thing about having a job. If your job is to make games, you do that. If your job is to deliver mail, you do that. Working in a particular job sector does not give you the right to slack off.

    If Valve fixes everything and provides complete and correct documentation, then they get support and sales. Going from an F to an A doesn't change the fact that you still had an F.

    No one is treating Valve like shit. We are simply demanding we get some support, some documentation, and some communication. We get none of those things. Being a customer DOES give you the right to expect a certain level of quality and service from the business you are patronizing.

    If Valve's priorities continue to diverge from what so many of us expect, that's fine. They'll just lose our money and our support. Let's be clear here - server admins are supporting Valve, not the other way around. I'm sorry I can't apply for a job at Valve, I already have a job of my own. I can't be programming for everyone in the world, can I? Regardless, I wouldn't want to work in an office where a complete lack of customer support gets a passing grade.

    Valve's lack of support and communication is indefensible to anyone with even a remote knowledge of programming and software development.

    > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:12:41 -0500
    > From: richard.eid (AT) gmail (DOT) com
    > To: hlds (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com
    > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
    >
    > If Valve doesn't do everything we say, they suck. If Valve doesn't fix
    > everything now, they suck. If Valve doesn't kiss our asses every second of
    > every day, they suck. They don't care, they won't fix this, they refuse to
    > fix that. All they want is our money.
    >
    > You all sound like a broken record. And worse than that, you have no lives
    > outside of this thing we have here. Did anyone stop to think that since
    > they all busted their asses for who knows how long getting Left 4 Dead out
    > the door, while providing updates to TF2 the whole time, that maybe...just
    > maybe, they'd want to take a break for a little while during the holidays?
    > You know...so they could spend time with their families.
    >
    > Honestly, since release of TOB, there have been a relentless amount of
    > updates to their products. In the time that has passed from TOB until now,
    > the only people being neglected were probably most of the families of Valve
    > employees. Does anyone feel they deserve a little break?
    >
    > They're ignoring us? Really? You think so? Does anyone here subscribe to
    > HLCoders? A little civility goes a long way. In my opinion, Valve isn't
    > ignoring this list, they just don't want to reply. I swear, this list =
    > SPUF sometimes. Any two words they say are held against them forever.
    >
    > I know that a lot of kids subscribe to this list, so it would be difficult
    > for a lot of you to understand, but there is such a thing as priorities in
    > life. Gaming is not as high on that list once you have a family to take
    > care of and a boss to answer to. And you are not the boss of anyone at
    > Valve.
    >
    > Valve knows about the problems, obviously. You all keep saying the same
    > things over and over. Give them a break. Just because you didn't have
    > anything to do for the past couple of weeks doesn't mean they had to sit
    > around and hop on every little problem we have. What happens when updates
    > are released to address the current existing issues? Are you going to
    > apologize for acting like a bunch of assholes or are you going to feel
    > stupid for saying things like, "Valve doesn't care about their games
    > anymore"? Wait...I know. 90% of you will say, "Finally." 5% won't be
    > happy no matter what. 4% will bring up another issue that Valve is
    > ignoring. And 1% will say, "Thank you."
    >
    > Yes, we paid money for the game. But $50 does not give you the right to
    > treat the people trying to help you like shit. Sometimes the problems that
    > you claim are easy fixes may not be so easy to fix. And since most of you
    > know for a fact that it's an easy fix, there's always jobs (AT) valvesoftware (DOT) com
    > .
    >
    > Grow up. They are aware of the problems. Like Aaron said, there are your
    > priorities and then there are business priorities. Just because the issues
    > high on your list may not be high on theirs doesn't mean they're ignoring
    > you. But then, it would be stupid of me to assume that most of you would
    > understand any of that, especially given your attitudes over the past few
    > months.
    >
    > -Richard Eid
    > _______________________________________________
    > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
    > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds


    _________________________________________________________________
    It's the same Hotmail(r). If by "same" you mean up to 70% faster.
    http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_122008
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  16. Olly

    Olly Guest

    I work at a very large corporation that I bet everyone here has heard of
    (and uses products of ours) as a software engineer.. and I have just come
    back from my 2 week Christmas vacation.
    Why should valve work over Christmas? What makes them different?

    Just because McDonalds and KFC are open over the holidays doesn't mean
    every other place should be. To have people in during holidays, you have to
    pay again for heating, wages, etc.

    You bought the game 'as-is' valve are not expected to fix anything. It
    would of course be nice if they did, but they are no-way legally bound to do
    Anything more to it.

    2009/1/6 Blood Letter <bw_bloodletter (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>

    >
    > If Valve completely ignores server operators who provide free servers,
    > without which their games would be useless, they suck.
    >
    > If Valve lets long standing bugs, exploits, and security issues go
    > unattended while focusing only on the latest content update + free weekend,
    > they clearly prioritize sales over customers.
    >
    > I don't know about Valve's office, but if something goes wrong with a
    > system at my office, even on Christmas day, we respond to it, and come into
    > the office if necessary. If there are fires wreaking havoc with the power
    > grid and people are being evacuated from their homes, we coordinate to make
    > sure our servers are backed up, the backups are offsite, and the servers are
    > safe.
    >
    > If someone at Valve wants a break, they can take vacation days. Do they
    > only have 3 guys, and each only does 1 thing? I hope not. Any company
    > worth it's salt knows you need redundancy in your mind share.
    >
    > Valve IS ignoring this list, by not replying. They get torn apart because
    > they never respond to important issues, they're always late, and they never,
    > EVER, provide clear and complete answers, let alone any semblance of
    > documentation.
    >
    > Even if I were a child, I would still be a paying customer. If you're
    > saying Valve gets a pass because gaming is not a priority in life, then you
    > don't understand a single thing about having a job. If your job is to make
    > games, you do that. If your job is to deliver mail, you do that. Working
    > in a particular job sector does not give you the right to slack off.
    >
    > If Valve fixes everything and provides complete and correct documentation,
    > then they get support and sales. Going from an F to an A doesn't change the
    > fact that you still had an F.
    >
    > No one is treating Valve like shit. We are simply demanding we get some
    > support, some documentation, and some communication. We get none of those
    > things. Being a customer DOES give you the right to expect a certain level
    > of quality and service from the business you are patronizing.
    >
    > If Valve's priorities continue to diverge from what so many of us expect,
    > that's fine. They'll just lose our money and our support. Let's be clear
    > here - server admins are supporting Valve, not the other way around. I'm
    > sorry I can't apply for a job at Valve, I already have a job of my own. I
    > can't be programming for everyone in the world, can I? Regardless, I
    > wouldn't want to work in an office where a complete lack of customer support
    > gets a passing grade.
    >
    > Valve's lack of support and communication is indefensible to anyone with
    > even a remote knowledge of programming and software development.
    >
    > > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:12:41 -0500
    > > From: richard.eid (AT) gmail (DOT) com
    > > To: hlds (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com
    > > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
    > >
    > > If Valve doesn't do everything we say, they suck. If Valve doesn't fix
    > > everything now, they suck. If Valve doesn't kiss our asses every second

    > of
    > > every day, they suck. They don't care, they won't fix this, they refuse

    > to
    > > fix that. All they want is our money.
    > >
    > > You all sound like a broken record. And worse than that, you have no

    > lives
    > > outside of this thing we have here. Did anyone stop to think that since
    > > they all busted their asses for who knows how long getting Left 4 Dead

    > out
    > > the door, while providing updates to TF2 the whole time, that

    > maybe...just
    > > maybe, they'd want to take a break for a little while during the

    > holidays?
    > > You know...so they could spend time with their families.
    > >
    > > Honestly, since release of TOB, there have been a relentless amount of
    > > updates to their products. In the time that has passed from TOB until

    > now,
    > > the only people being neglected were probably most of the families of

    > Valve
    > > employees. Does anyone feel they deserve a little break?
    > >
    > > They're ignoring us? Really? You think so? Does anyone here subscribe

    > to
    > > HLCoders? A little civility goes a long way. In my opinion, Valve isn't
    > > ignoring this list, they just don't want to reply. I swear, this list =
    > > SPUF sometimes. Any two words they say are held against them forever.
    > >
    > > I know that a lot of kids subscribe to this list, so it would be

    > difficult
    > > for a lot of you to understand, but there is such a thing as priorities

    > in
    > > life. Gaming is not as high on that list once you have a family to take
    > > care of and a boss to answer to. And you are not the boss of anyone at
    > > Valve.
    > >
    > > Valve knows about the problems, obviously. You all keep saying the same
    > > things over and over. Give them a break. Just because you didn't have
    > > anything to do for the past couple of weeks doesn't mean they had to sit
    > > around and hop on every little problem we have. What happens when

    > updates
    > > are released to address the current existing issues? Are you going to
    > > apologize for acting like a bunch of assholes or are you going to feel
    > > stupid for saying things like, "Valve doesn't care about their games
    > > anymore"? Wait...I know. 90% of you will say, "Finally." 5% won't be
    > > happy no matter what. 4% will bring up another issue that Valve is
    > > ignoring. And 1% will say, "Thank you."
    > >
    > > Yes, we paid money for the game. But $50 does not give you the right to
    > > treat the people trying to help you like shit. Sometimes the problems

    > that
    > > you claim are easy fixes may not be so easy to fix. And since most of

    > you
    > > know for a fact that it's an easy fix, there's always

    > jobs (AT) valvesoftware (DOT) com
    > > .
    > >
    > > Grow up. They are aware of the problems. Like Aaron said, there are

    > your
    > > priorities and then there are business priorities. Just because the

    > issues
    > > high on your list may not be high on theirs doesn't mean they're ignoring
    > > you. But then, it would be stupid of me to assume that most of you would
    > > understand any of that, especially given your attitudes over the past few
    > > months.
    > >
    > > -Richard Eid
    > > _______________________________________________
    > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,

    > please visit:
    > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds

    >
    > _________________________________________________________________
    > It's the same Hotmail(R). If by "same" you mean up to 70% faster.
    >
    > http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_122008
    > _______________________________________________
    > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
    > please visit:
    > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
    >

    _______________________________________________
    To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
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  17. SakeFox

    SakeFox Guest

    it's been basically treated as the norm that it's russian roulette with
    any update or game release. they keep pushing server files without
    testing them and we suffer for it. i can't count the number of times
    after a tf2 update that servers would work because of the server update.
    Look at the game launches TF2 linux binaries didn't work for hours and
    L4D windows binaries didn't work for hours. Is the next game just going
    to have broken binaries for both servers? Is it really that hard to test
    something before you make it live. This happens all the time and getting
    more frequent.

    Karl Weckstrom wrote:
    > Now THAT is what I consider "Well said".
    >
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: hlds-bounces (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-bounces (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Blood Letter
    > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 11:50 AM
    > To: hlds (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com
    > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
    >
    >
    > If Valve completely ignores server operators who provide free servers, without which their games would be useless, they suck.
    >
    > If Valve lets long standing bugs, exploits, and security issues go unattended while focusing only on the latest content update + free weekend, they clearly prioritize sales over customers.
    >
    > I don't know about Valve's office, but if something goes wrong with a system at my office, even on Christmas day, we respond to it, and come into the office if necessary. If there are fires wreaking havoc with the power grid and people are being evacuated from their homes, we coordinate to make sure our servers are backed up, the backups are offsite, and the servers are safe.
    >
    > If someone at Valve wants a break, they can take vacation days. Do they only have 3 guys, and each only does 1 thing? I hope not. Any company worth it's salt knows you need redundancy in your mind share.
    >
    > Valve IS ignoring this list, by not replying. They get torn apart because they never respond to important issues, they're always late, and they never, EVER, provide clear and complete answers, let alone any semblance of documentation.
    >
    > Even if I were a child, I would still be a paying customer. If you're saying Valve gets a pass because gaming is not a priority in life, then you don't understand a single thing about having a job. If your job is to make games, you do that. If your job is to deliver mail, you do that. Working in a particular job sector does not give you the right to slack off.
    >
    > If Valve fixes everything and provides complete and correct documentation, then they get support and sales. Going from an F to an A doesn't change the fact that you still had an F.
    >
    > No one is treating Valve like shit. We are simply demanding we get some support, some documentation, and some communication. We get none of those things. Being a customer DOES give you the right to expect a certain level of quality and service from the business you are patronizing.
    >
    > If Valve's priorities continue to diverge from what so many of us expect, that's fine. They'll just lose our money and our support. Let's be clear here - server admins are supporting Valve, not the other way around. I'm sorry I can't apply for a job at Valve, I already have a job of my own. I can't be programming for everyone in the world, can I? Regardless, I wouldn't want to work in an office where a complete lack of customer support gets a passing grade.
    >
    > Valve's lack of support and communication is indefensible to anyone with even a remote knowledge of programming and software development.
    >
    >
    >> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:12:41 -0500
    >> From: richard.eid (AT) gmail (DOT) com
    >> To: hlds (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com
    >> Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
    >>
    >> If Valve doesn't do everything we say, they suck. If Valve doesn't fix
    >> everything now, they suck. If Valve doesn't kiss our asses every second of
    >> every day, they suck. They don't care, they won't fix this, they refuse to
    >> fix that. All they want is our money.
    >>
    >> You all sound like a broken record. And worse than that, you have no lives
    >> outside of this thing we have here. Did anyone stop to think that since
    >> they all busted their asses for who knows how long getting Left 4 Dead out
    >> the door, while providing updates to TF2 the whole time, that maybe...just
    >> maybe, they'd want to take a break for a little while during the holidays?
    >> You know...so they could spend time with their families.
    >>
    >> Honestly, since release of TOB, there have been a relentless amount of
    >> updates to their products. In the time that has passed from TOB until now,
    >> the only people being neglected were probably most of the families of Valve
    >> employees. Does anyone feel they deserve a little break?
    >>
    >> They're ignoring us? Really? You think so? Does anyone here subscribe to
    >> HLCoders? A little civility goes a long way. In my opinion, Valve isn't
    >> ignoring this list, they just don't want to reply. I swear, this list =
    >> SPUF sometimes. Any two words they say are held against them forever.
    >>
    >> I know that a lot of kids subscribe to this list, so it would be difficult
    >> for a lot of you to understand, but there is such a thing as priorities in
    >> life. Gaming is not as high on that list once you have a family to take
    >> care of and a boss to answer to. And you are not the boss of anyone at
    >> Valve.
    >>
    >> Valve knows about the problems, obviously. You all keep saying the same
    >> things over and over. Give them a break. Just because you didn't have
    >> anything to do for the past couple of weeks doesn't mean they had to sit
    >> around and hop on every little problem we have. What happens when updates
    >> are released to address the current existing issues? Are you going to
    >> apologize for acting like a bunch of assholes or are you going to feel
    >> stupid for saying things like, "Valve doesn't care about their games
    >> anymore"? Wait...I know. 90% of you will say, "Finally." 5% won't be
    >> happy no matter what. 4% will bring up another issue that Valve is
    >> ignoring. And 1% will say, "Thank you."
    >>
    >> Yes, we paid money for the game. But $50 does not give you the right to
    >> treat the people trying to help you like shit. Sometimes the problems that
    >> you claim are easy fixes may not be so easy to fix. And since most of you
    >> know for a fact that it's an easy fix, there's always jobs (AT) valvesoftware (DOT) com
    >> .
    >>
    >> Grow up. They are aware of the problems. Like Aaron said, there are your
    >> priorities and then there are business priorities. Just because the issues
    >> high on your list may not be high on theirs doesn't mean they're ignoring
    >> you. But then, it would be stupid of me to assume that most of you would
    >> understand any of that, especially given your attitudes over the past few
    >> months.
    >>
    >> -Richard Eid
    >> _______________________________________________
    >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
    >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
    >>

    >
    > _________________________________________________________________
    > It's the same Hotmail(r). If by "same" you mean up to 70% faster.
    > http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_122008
    > _______________________________________________
    > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
    > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
    >
    > _______________________________________________
    > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
    > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
    >
    >
    >


    _______________________________________________
    To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
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  18. Olly

    Olly Guest

    If you had ANY remote idea of how many hardware/os configurations there are
    out there that could cause problems, you would be a little more lenient.
    While some of valve's releases have been a little too buggy for anyones
    liking, i'm sure that they test things as much as they can before release,
    why would they want to let them selves be known for this sort of thing.
    If valve took a day to fix a release for L4D for example, you sound exactly
    like the type of person who would spend time, opening up his email client,
    and writing another rant about how much valve fails for not releasing on
    time.

    2009/1/6 SakeFox <sakefox (AT) kingdomsend (DOT) com>

    > it's been basically treated as the norm that it's russian roulette with
    > any update or game release. they keep pushing server files without
    > testing them and we suffer for it. i can't count the number of times
    > after a tf2 update that servers would work because of the server update.
    > Look at the game launches TF2 linux binaries didn't work for hours and
    > L4D windows binaries didn't work for hours. Is the next game just going
    > to have broken binaries for both servers? Is it really that hard to test
    > something before you make it live. This happens all the time and getting
    > more frequent.
    >
    > Karl Weckstrom wrote:
    > > Now THAT is what I consider "Well said".
    > >
    > >
    > > -----Original Message-----
    > > From: hlds-bounces (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com [mailto:

    > hlds-bounces (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Blood Letter
    > > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 11:50 AM
    > > To: hlds (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com
    > > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
    > >
    > >
    > > If Valve completely ignores server operators who provide free servers,

    > without which their games would be useless, they suck.
    > >
    > > If Valve lets long standing bugs, exploits, and security issues go

    > unattended while focusing only on the latest content update + free weekend,
    > they clearly prioritize sales over customers.
    > >
    > > I don't know about Valve's office, but if something goes wrong with a

    > system at my office, even on Christmas day, we respond to it, and come into
    > the office if necessary. If there are fires wreaking havoc with the power
    > grid and people are being evacuated from their homes, we coordinate to make
    > sure our servers are backed up, the backups are offsite, and the servers are
    > safe.
    > >
    > > If someone at Valve wants a break, they can take vacation days. Do they

    > only have 3 guys, and each only does 1 thing? I hope not. Any company
    > worth it's salt knows you need redundancy in your mind share.
    > >
    > > Valve IS ignoring this list, by not replying. They get torn apart

    > because they never respond to important issues, they're always late, and
    > they never, EVER, provide clear and complete answers, let alone any
    > semblance of documentation.
    > >
    > > Even if I were a child, I would still be a paying customer. If you're

    > saying Valve gets a pass because gaming is not a priority in life, then you
    > don't understand a single thing about having a job. If your job is to make
    > games, you do that. If your job is to deliver mail, you do that. Working
    > in a particular job sector does not give you the right to slack off.
    > >
    > > If Valve fixes everything and provides complete and correct

    > documentation, then they get support and sales. Going from an F to an A
    > doesn't change the fact that you still had an F.
    > >
    > > No one is treating Valve like shit. We are simply demanding we get some

    > support, some documentation, and some communication. We get none of those
    > things. Being a customer DOES give you the right to expect a certain level
    > of quality and service from the business you are patronizing.
    > >
    > > If Valve's priorities continue to diverge from what so many of us expect,

    > that's fine. They'll just lose our money and our support. Let's be clear
    > here - server admins are supporting Valve, not the other way around. I'm
    > sorry I can't apply for a job at Valve, I already have a job of my own. I
    > can't be programming for everyone in the world, can I? Regardless, I
    > wouldn't want to work in an office where a complete lack of customer support
    > gets a passing grade.
    > >
    > > Valve's lack of support and communication is indefensible to anyone with

    > even a remote knowledge of programming and software development.
    > >
    > >
    > >> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:12:41 -0500
    > >> From: richard.eid (AT) gmail (DOT) com
    > >> To: hlds (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com
    > >> Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
    > >>
    > >> If Valve doesn't do everything we say, they suck. If Valve doesn't fix
    > >> everything now, they suck. If Valve doesn't kiss our asses every second

    > of
    > >> every day, they suck. They don't care, they won't fix this, they refuse

    > to
    > >> fix that. All they want is our money.
    > >>
    > >> You all sound like a broken record. And worse than that, you have no

    > lives
    > >> outside of this thing we have here. Did anyone stop to think that since
    > >> they all busted their asses for who knows how long getting Left 4 Dead

    > out
    > >> the door, while providing updates to TF2 the whole time, that

    > maybe...just
    > >> maybe, they'd want to take a break for a little while during the

    > holidays?
    > >> You know...so they could spend time with their families.
    > >>
    > >> Honestly, since release of TOB, there have been a relentless amount of
    > >> updates to their products. In the time that has passed from TOB until

    > now,
    > >> the only people being neglected were probably most of the families of

    > Valve
    > >> employees. Does anyone feel they deserve a little break?
    > >>
    > >> They're ignoring us? Really? You think so? Does anyone here subscribe

    > to
    > >> HLCoders? A little civility goes a long way. In my opinion, Valve

    > isn't
    > >> ignoring this list, they just don't want to reply. I swear, this list =
    > >> SPUF sometimes. Any two words they say are held against them forever.
    > >>
    > >> I know that a lot of kids subscribe to this list, so it would be

    > difficult
    > >> for a lot of you to understand, but there is such a thing as priorities

    > in
    > >> life. Gaming is not as high on that list once you have a family to take
    > >> care of and a boss to answer to. And you are not the boss of anyone at
    > >> Valve.
    > >>
    > >> Valve knows about the problems, obviously. You all keep saying the same
    > >> things over and over. Give them a break. Just because you didn't have
    > >> anything to do for the past couple of weeks doesn't mean they had to sit
    > >> around and hop on every little problem we have. What happens when

    > updates
    > >> are released to address the current existing issues? Are you going to
    > >> apologize for acting like a bunch of assholes or are you going to feel
    > >> stupid for saying things like, "Valve doesn't care about their games
    > >> anymore"? Wait...I know. 90% of you will say, "Finally." 5% won't be
    > >> happy no matter what. 4% will bring up another issue that Valve is
    > >> ignoring. And 1% will say, "Thank you."
    > >>
    > >> Yes, we paid money for the game. But $50 does not give you the right to
    > >> treat the people trying to help you like shit. Sometimes the problems

    > that
    > >> you claim are easy fixes may not be so easy to fix. And since most of

    > you
    > >> know for a fact that it's an easy fix, there's always

    > jobs (AT) valvesoftware (DOT) com
    > >> .
    > >>
    > >> Grow up. They are aware of the problems. Like Aaron said, there are

    > your
    > >> priorities and then there are business priorities. Just because the

    > issues
    > >> high on your list may not be high on theirs doesn't mean they're

    > ignoring
    > >> you. But then, it would be stupid of me to assume that most of you

    > would
    > >> understand any of that, especially given your attitudes over the past

    > few
    > >> months.
    > >>
    > >> -Richard Eid
    > >> _______________________________________________
    > >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,

    > please visit:
    > >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
    > >>

    > >
    > > _________________________________________________________________
    > > It's the same Hotmail(r). If by "same" you mean up to 70% faster.
    > >

    > http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_122008
    > > _______________________________________________
    > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,

    > please visit:
    > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
    > >
    > > _______________________________________________
    > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,

    > please visit:
    > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
    > >
    > >
    > >

    >
    > _______________________________________________
    > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
    > please visit:
    > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
    >

    _______________________________________________
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  19. Comments about working over Christmas are hardly reasonable in this case. We're paying customers, who pay additional money to support other paying customers' ability to play the game. Since the game launched the Sourcemod team have ported their API to L4D's engine and I've written plugins to fix most of the bugs and exploits, all on the unpaid time of volunteers. Valve are being *paid* to code the game, and the support just isn't there. If I shipped a product to a customer in this kind of state, I'd probably be fired.

    Valve have been seriously dropping in quality of late with regards to timeliness of bugfixes, response to communication, etc. Left 4 Dead in particular strikes me as an extremely lazy, rushed title - there's a large number of exploits, half of the maps are unfinished (not available in Versus mode), and servers repeatedly revert to the wrong game mode. There's also crap like the L4D beta having no way to allow private servers (and the current system, Steam group servers, is seriously broken as provided, and doesn't work for half my users) which shows an increasing disinterest in anything beyond getting cash in the bank from game sales.

    -Dave

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  20. SakeFox

    SakeFox Guest

    oh i know how many different configurations there are. I do comp tech
    support for a trauma level 1 hospital. It would be completely different
    if they worked some some versions of there corresponding OS version, but
    its always the whole OS line. not just this version or that version of
    whatever OS

    Olly wrote:
    > If you had ANY remote idea of how many hardware/os configurations there are
    > out there that could cause problems, you would be a little more lenient.
    > While some of valve's releases have been a little too buggy for anyones
    > liking, i'm sure that they test things as much as they can before release,
    > why would they want to let them selves be known for this sort of thing.
    > If valve took a day to fix a release for L4D for example, you sound exactly
    > like the type of person who would spend time, opening up his email client,
    > and writing another rant about how much valve fails for not releasing on
    > time.
    >
    > 2009/1/6 SakeFox <sakefox (AT) kingdomsend (DOT) com>
    >
    >
    >> it's been basically treated as the norm that it's russian roulette with
    >> any update or game release. they keep pushing server files without
    >> testing them and we suffer for it. i can't count the number of times
    >> after a tf2 update that servers would work because of the server update.
    >> Look at the game launches TF2 linux binaries didn't work for hours and
    >> L4D windows binaries didn't work for hours. Is the next game just going
    >> to have broken binaries for both servers? Is it really that hard to test
    >> something before you make it live. This happens all the time and getting
    >> more frequent.
    >>
    >> Karl Weckstrom wrote:
    >>
    >>> Now THAT is what I consider "Well said".
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> -----Original Message-----
    >>> From: hlds-bounces (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com [mailto:
    >>>

    >> hlds-bounces (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Blood Letter
    >>
    >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 11:50 AM
    >>> To: hlds (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com
    >>> Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> If Valve completely ignores server operators who provide free servers,
    >>>

    >> without which their games would be useless, they suck.
    >>
    >>> If Valve lets long standing bugs, exploits, and security issues go
    >>>

    >> unattended while focusing only on the latest content update + free weekend,
    >> they clearly prioritize sales over customers.
    >>
    >>> I don't know about Valve's office, but if something goes wrong with a
    >>>

    >> system at my office, even on Christmas day, we respond to it, and come into
    >> the office if necessary. If there are fires wreaking havoc with the power
    >> grid and people are being evacuated from their homes, we coordinate to make
    >> sure our servers are backed up, the backups are offsite, and the servers are
    >> safe.
    >>
    >>> If someone at Valve wants a break, they can take vacation days. Do they
    >>>

    >> only have 3 guys, and each only does 1 thing? I hope not. Any company
    >> worth it's salt knows you need redundancy in your mind share.
    >>
    >>> Valve IS ignoring this list, by not replying. They get torn apart
    >>>

    >> because they never respond to important issues, they're always late, and
    >> they never, EVER, provide clear and complete answers, let alone any
    >> semblance of documentation.
    >>
    >>> Even if I were a child, I would still be a paying customer. If you're
    >>>

    >> saying Valve gets a pass because gaming is not a priority in life, then you
    >> don't understand a single thing about having a job. If your job is to make
    >> games, you do that. If your job is to deliver mail, you do that. Working
    >> in a particular job sector does not give you the right to slack off.
    >>
    >>> If Valve fixes everything and provides complete and correct
    >>>

    >> documentation, then they get support and sales. Going from an F to an A
    >> doesn't change the fact that you still had an F.
    >>
    >>> No one is treating Valve like shit. We are simply demanding we get some
    >>>

    >> support, some documentation, and some communication. We get none of those
    >> things. Being a customer DOES give you the right to expect a certain level
    >> of quality and service from the business you are patronizing.
    >>
    >>> If Valve's priorities continue to diverge from what so many of us expect,
    >>>

    >> that's fine. They'll just lose our money and our support. Let's be clear
    >> here - server admins are supporting Valve, not the other way around. I'm
    >> sorry I can't apply for a job at Valve, I already have a job of my own. I
    >> can't be programming for everyone in the world, can I? Regardless, I
    >> wouldn't want to work in an office where a complete lack of customer support
    >> gets a passing grade.
    >>
    >>> Valve's lack of support and communication is indefensible to anyone with
    >>>

    >> even a remote knowledge of programming and software development.
    >>
    >>>
    >>>> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:12:41 -0500
    >>>> From: richard.eid (AT) gmail (DOT) com
    >>>> To: hlds (AT) list (DOT) valvesoftware.com
    >>>> Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
    >>>>
    >>>> If Valve doesn't do everything we say, they suck. If Valve doesn't fix
    >>>> everything now, they suck. If Valve doesn't kiss our asses every second
    >>>>

    >> of
    >>
    >>>> every day, they suck. They don't care, they won't fix this, they refuse
    >>>>

    >> to
    >>
    >>>> fix that. All they want is our money.
    >>>>
    >>>> You all sound like a broken record. And worse than that, you have no
    >>>>

    >> lives
    >>
    >>>> outside of this thing we have here. Did anyone stop to think that since
    >>>> they all busted their asses for who knows how long getting Left 4 Dead
    >>>>

    >> out
    >>
    >>>> the door, while providing updates to TF2 the whole time, that
    >>>>

    >> maybe...just
    >>
    >>>> maybe, they'd want to take a break for a little while during the
    >>>>

    >> holidays?
    >>
    >>>> You know...so they could spend time with their families.
    >>>>
    >>>> Honestly, since release of TOB, there have been a relentless amount of
    >>>> updates to their products. In the time that has passed from TOB until
    >>>>

    >> now,
    >>
    >>>> the only people being neglected were probably most of the families of
    >>>>

    >> Valve
    >>
    >>>> employees. Does anyone feel they deserve a little break?
    >>>>
    >>>> They're ignoring us? Really? You think so? Does anyone here subscribe
    >>>>

    >> to
    >>
    >>>> HLCoders? A little civility goes a long way. In my opinion, Valve
    >>>>

    >> isn't
    >>
    >>>> ignoring this list, they just don't want to reply. I swear, this list =
    >>>> SPUF sometimes. Any two words they say are held against them forever.
    >>>>
    >>>> I know that a lot of kids subscribe to this list, so it would be
    >>>>

    >> difficult
    >>
    >>>> for a lot of you to understand, but there is such a thing as priorities
    >>>>

    >> in
    >>
    >>>> life. Gaming is not as high on that list once you have a family to take
    >>>> care of and a boss to answer to. And you are not the boss of anyone at
    >>>> Valve.
    >>>>
    >>>> Valve knows about the problems, obviously. You all keep saying the same
    >>>> things over and over. Give them a break. Just because you didn't have
    >>>> anything to do for the past couple of weeks doesn't mean they had to sit
    >>>> around and hop on every little problem we have. What happens when
    >>>>

    >> updates
    >>
    >>>> are released to address the current existing issues? Are you going to
    >>>> apologize for acting like a bunch of assholes or are you going to feel
    >>>> stupid for saying things like, "Valve doesn't care about their games
    >>>> anymore"? Wait...I know. 90% of you will say, "Finally." 5% won't be
    >>>> happy no matter what. 4% will bring up another issue that Valve is
    >>>> ignoring. And 1% will say, "Thank you."
    >>>>
    >>>> Yes, we paid money for the game. But $50 does not give you the right to
    >>>> treat the people trying to help you like shit. Sometimes the problems
    >>>>

    >> that
    >>
    >>>> you claim are easy fixes may not be so easy to fix. And since most of
    >>>>

    >> you
    >>
    >>>> know for a fact that it's an easy fix, there's always
    >>>>

    >> jobs (AT) valvesoftware (DOT) com
    >>
    >>>> .
    >>>>
    >>>> Grow up. They are aware of the problems. Like Aaron said, there are
    >>>>

    >> your
    >>
    >>>> priorities and then there are business priorities. Just because the
    >>>>

    >> issues
    >>
    >>>> high on your list may not be high on theirs doesn't mean they're
    >>>>

    >> ignoring
    >>
    >>>> you. But then, it would be stupid of me to assume that most of you
    >>>>

    >> would
    >>
    >>>> understand any of that, especially given your attitudes over the past
    >>>>

    >> few
    >>
    >>>> months.
    >>>>
    >>>> -Richard Eid
    >>>> _______________________________________________
    >>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
    >>>>

    >> please visit:
    >>
    >>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>> _________________________________________________________________
    >>> It's the same Hotmail(r). If by "same" you mean up to 70% faster.
    >>>
    >>>

    >> http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_122008
    >>
    >>> _______________________________________________
    >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
    >>>

    >> please visit:
    >>
    >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
    >>>
    >>> _______________________________________________
    >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
    >>>

    >> please visit:
    >>
    >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>

    >> _______________________________________________
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    >> please visit:
    >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
    >>
    >>

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    >
    >
    >


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