Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] The End

Discussion in 'HLDS / Valve Linux newsletter' started by SaintK., Oct 27, 2016.

  1. SaintK.

    SaintK. Guest

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  2. Simiancage

    Simiancage Guest

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  3. ics

    ics Guest

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  5. MartinV

    MartinV Guest

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  7. MartinV

    MartinV Guest

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  8. Simiancage

    Simiancage Guest

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  9. TimAnderson

    TimAnderson Guest

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  10. Simiancage

    Simiancage Guest

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  11. I dont frequently host servers for multiplayer Source games except among
    my friends but heres my two cents:

    Almost every game developer is becoming hostile to community-run servers,
    especially the largest ones. TF2 is unfortunately one of the few shooters
    out there that actually still has a server browser at all.
    If you look at the most recently released popular shooters, theyre almost
    all exclusively played through matchmaking. Some let you rent a server..
    from the developer for outrageous prices, but it was easy to spot the
    decline over there, starting with restricting custom servers to registered
    game server providers only.

    Ever since, like 2 years ago, when Quickplay in TF2 started having an
    option to ignore community servers, which eventually became the default,
    things have been going downhill big time.
    But having community servers that can be created for free at all still
    gives a little hope that things could turn around.
    Unfortunately the continued comments on this list, that what has been done
    to community servers is not something the people that play on and run the
    community servers want, have fallen on deaf ears.

    However, this is definitely an opportunity where something *can* still be
    done about this, because the option to run a community server, and linking
    people to join a specific server from the web, still exists.
    Even if Valve does nothing to bring community servers back into the view of
    players in-game,
    I could see a community-run site where there might be a server list, with
    links to join them, and also a button to just choose one near you, maybe
    like how Quickplay used to work.



    On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Tim Anderson <twjanderson@gmail.com> wrote:

    > For those of you not hosting TF2 servers, you may not understand what
    > the issue is. Over the past couple of years, the TF2 team at Valve has
    > been killing community servers by making them more and more difficult
    > to find and reach, and content that did not work on community servers.
    > Community servers went from being more populated than official servers
    > to being less populated through these unnatural changes.
    >
    > A few months ago, Valve put every community server into a separate
    > category at the bottom of the list (basically custom tabs 2.0) which I
    > could not believe was being described as a positive for community
    > servers https://twitter.com/4G_b4nny/status/729839464684490752 You
    > even had server owners here thinking it was actually a good thing.
    >
    > And now this is the first Halloween update where community servers are
    > completely excluded and even the most popular community servers are
    > starting to empty out.
    >
    > Even if you are not hosting TF2, you should be more considerate and
    > think about the possibility that something like this will happen to
    > your server and game.
    >
    > John Schoenick or Eric Smith, if by any chance you are reading this,
    > these changes will probably kill community servers for good. Ive seen
    > many of the most popular ones empty out for the first time this
    > Halloween. If you want to just kill community servers, at least have
    > the decency to tell us so we do not waste anymore time and money.
    >
    >
    _______________________________________________

    https://i3d.net
     
  12. > Almost every game developer is becoming hostile to community-run servers,
    > especially the largest ones. TF2 is unfortunately one of the few shooters
    > out there that actually still has a server browser at all.

    You would have a point, except there has never been another AAA game where
    they started off with a server browser and then killed it off later. In any
    other game, people would not be afraid to call it a bait and switch.

    It might have been a better business plan for Valve to start with no
    community servers, but that time is long past. By killing them now, Valve
    is just throwing away their community players in a foolish effort to
    compete directly with Overwatch.

    Many community players have told me that they arent moving back to
    official servers when community ones die off. They will just play Overwatch
    instead. If they are forced to live with teleport griefers and hackers,
    they will do it in a game with better graphics, new characters and
    mechanics, and devs that talk to the community.

    You can see that TF2 player counts are dropping harder than ever. And even
    considering monthly percent changes, you can see that the Halloween update
    resulted in a -5.42% player drop from the previous month, and a huge 20%
    drop compared to last year. How much more obvious can it get that they are
    going down the wrong path?

    October 2016 45,910.1 -5.42%
    October 2015 55,256.6 -0.93%
    October 2014 57,977.0 +5.24%

    http://steamcharts.com/app/440

    > However, this is definitely an opportunity where something *can* still be
    > done about this, because the option to run a community server, and linking
    > people to join a specific server from the web, still exists.

    There is already a website like that, I forgot the name. No one ever uses
    it because no one is spending money to advertise it. And why should we be
    spending money on top of servers into a website run by an unknown 3rd party
    and essentially rewarding Valve for their actions by giving them more Mann
    Co Store customers?

    Everyone that would use a web browser to find servers is already
    comfortable using the in-game browser. The people you need to reach are the
    quickplay/casual players, and if it isnt in the game, they arent going
    to bother.

    There is also no way you can out-advertise Valve. TF2 updates are given
    premium placement with millions of views on the Steam store and for every
    single TF2 player when they start the game. To get remotely around this
    amount of eyeballs, you would need to spend tens of thousands per month.

    This is something that only the TF2 team can fix. It is up John and Eric
    whether they want both a dying game and ruined reputation, or something not
    as bad.
    _______________________________________________

    https://i3d.net
     
  13. MatthewHills

    MatthewHills Guest

    I agree with you, Darren.

    There are sites out there that seem to be the go-to places for TF2 item
    trading and news and so on. Im sure itd be possible for some talented
    folks to virtually take over the whole community server thing from Valve
    and make a service that feels like an essential tool for any enthusiastic
    TF2 player.

    TF2 is a great way for people to get into level design but I am concerned
    that budding mappers will find it very difficult to get their maps tested
    and played should community servers dwindle to insignificance or become
    very hard to discover.

    Matt (worMatty)

    On 1 November 2016 at 21:37, Darren VanBuren <admin@theoks.net> wrote:

    > I dont frequently host servers for multiplayer Source games except among
    > my friends but heres my two cents:
    >
    > Almost every game developer is becoming hostile to community-run servers,
    > especially the largest ones. TF2 is unfortunately one of the few shooters
    > out there that actually still has a server browser at all.
    > If you look at the most recently released popular shooters, theyre almost
    > all exclusively played through matchmaking. Some let you rent a server..
    > from the developer for outrageous prices, but it was easy to spot the
    > decline over there, starting with restricting custom servers to registered
    > game server providers only.
    >
    > Ever since, like 2 years ago, when Quickplay in TF2 started having an
    > option to ignore community servers, which eventually became the default,
    > things have been going downhill big time.
    > But having community servers that can be created for free at all still
    > gives a little hope that things could turn around.
    > Unfortunately the continued comments on this list, that what has been done
    > to community servers is not something the people that play on and run the
    > community servers want, have fallen on deaf ears.
    >
    > However, this is definitely an opportunity where something *can* still be
    > done about this, because the option to run a community server, and linking
    > people to join a specific server from the web, still exists.
    > Even if Valve does nothing to bring community servers back into the view of
    > players in-game,
    > I could see a community-run site where there might be a server list, with
    > links to join them, and also a button to just choose one near you, maybe
    > like how Quickplay used to work.
    >
    >
    >
    > On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Tim Anderson <twjanderson@gmail.com>
    > wrote:
    >
    > > For those of you not hosting TF2 servers, you may not understand what
    > > the issue is. Over the past couple of years, the TF2 team at Valve has
    > > been killing community servers by making them more and more difficult
    > > to find and reach, and content that did not work on community servers.
    > > Community servers went from being more populated than official servers
    > > to being less populated through these unnatural changes.
    > >
    > > A few months ago, Valve put every community server into a separate
    > > category at the bottom of the list (basically custom tabs 2.0) which I
    > > could not believe was being described as a positive for community
    > > servers https://twitter.com/4G_b4nny/status/729839464684490752 You
    > > even had server owners here thinking it was actually a good thing.
    > >
    > > And now this is the first Halloween update where community servers are
    > > completely excluded and even the most popular community servers are
    > > starting to empty out.
    > >
    > > Even if you are not hosting TF2, you should be more considerate and
    > > think about the possibility that something like this will happen to
    > > your server and game.
    > >
    > > John Schoenick or Eric Smith, if by any chance you are reading this,
    > > these changes will probably kill community servers for good. Ive seen
    > > many of the most popular ones empty out for the first time this
    > > Halloween. If you want to just kill community servers, at least have
    > > the decency to tell us so we do not waste anymore time and money.
    > >
    > >
    > _______________________________________________
    >
    > please visit:
    > https://i3d.net
    >
    _______________________________________________

    https://i3d.net
     
  14. I respectfully disagree and I guarantee you will failing. The only way out
    of this is to convince Valve theyve made a series of big mistakes and they
    need to reverse them now.

    I hate to say I told you so, but was I not right when I was the only person
    saying the Meet your Match update was going to kill community servers, not
    help them? And that it would become apparent after summer vacation?

    TF2 trading websites were made long before Valve started killing community
    servers. Thats why they have a relatively large user-base right now. Valve
    made their own trading request system, and even though it is not a complete
    replacement, most players use that instead. Only hardcore traders bother
    with the TF2 trading sites now. Trying to compete directly with the in-game
    menu is foolish.

    If you think Valve wont make a replacement for your website in the future
    given what is happening to community servers right, I have a bridge to sell
    you.
    _______________________________________________

    https://i3d.net
     
  15. ics

    ics Guest

    As i see it, community servers are becoming/have become obsolete for
    many games, because the companies are finding out that running servers
    for themselves for their games is a service and they can provide same
    quality of game all the time in terms of same configs, sufficient
    hardware and such. At the end, they can also just kill off the servers
    once they see fit. But as long as there are enough players and its
    profitable, it will continue.

    They used to have either dedicated server bundled in or just use the
    Player 2 Player model where there is no server, but the games happen on
    someones machine where others connect. But that was really bad way of
    doing it because you cannot predict that everyone has sufficient
    bandwidth or powerfull enough machine.

    There is no space left for dedicated community servers or server
    browser, because the system assings to any server available in the pool
    of official servers. This is where TF2 also went - there is still option
    for community servers but after 2 years of favoring quickplay over valve
    servers instead of community, pretty much nearly every community server
    has died off from players (and nobody wants to join empty server if
    there are servers available with players). Now with the halloween and
    all, not even the tags event_247 and eventmix had no affect for getting
    players in anymore since quickplay is defunct.

    Its still nearly impossible to compete with Valve servers with a
    community server. Before you just ran a server, had players in it and
    others joined because they used the server browser, as it was the only
    way to connect. Now, you just press button, get set into queue and thats
    it. Even if you would provide same gameplay and same quality of service,
    with the addition of running some custom maps some players like me have
    cooked up and admins around to watch over cheaters, there is just no
    viable option to do that. Automatic search too stronk!

    Ive been watching this change happening over 11 years now and sadly the
    wheels are currenly turning forward, not backward. Times change and i
    guess some of us have decided, are deciding or are still sticking with
    running servers but eventually it looks like we are fading out one way
    or another.

    -ics



    _______________________________________________

    https://i3d.net
     
  16. Simiancage

    Simiancage Guest

    Maybe its time to get back to the roots of where we all came from, back to
    cs/s and dod/s :)

    -----Original Message-----
    From: hlds_linux-bounces@.com
    [mailto:hlds_linux-bounces@.com] On Behalf Of ics
    Sent: 02 November 2016 05:32
    To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
    <hlds_linux@.com>
    Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] The End

    As i see it, community servers are becoming/have become obsolete for many
    games, because the companies are finding out that running servers for
    themselves for their games is a service and they can provide same quality of
    game all the time in terms of same configs, sufficient hardware and such. At
    the end, they can also just kill off the servers once they see fit. But as
    long as there are enough players and its profitable, it will continue.

    They used to have either dedicated server bundled in or just use the Player
    2 Player model where there is no server, but the games happen on someones
    machine where others connect. But that was really bad way of doing it
    because you cannot predict that everyone has sufficient bandwidth or
    powerfull enough machine.

    There is no space left for dedicated community servers or server browser,
    because the system assings to any server available in the pool of official
    servers. This is where TF2 also went - there is still option for community
    servers but after 2 years of favoring quickplay over valve servers instead
    of community, pretty much nearly every community server has died off from
    players (and nobody wants to join empty server if there are servers
    available with players). Now with the halloween and all, not even the tags
    event_247 and eventmix had no affect for getting players in anymore since
    quickplay is defunct.

    Its still nearly impossible to compete with Valve servers with a community
    server. Before you just ran a server, had players in it and others joined
    because they used the server browser, as it was the only way to connect.
    Now, you just press button, get set into queue and thats it. Even if you
    would provide same gameplay and same quality of service, with the addition
    of running some custom maps some players like me have cooked up and admins
    around to watch over cheaters, there is just no viable option to do that.
    Automatic search too stronk!

    Ive been watching this change happening over 11 years now and sadly the
    wheels are currenly turning forward, not backward. Times change and i guess
    some of us have decided, are deciding or are still sticking with running
    servers but eventually it looks like we are fading out one way or another.

    -ics



    _______________________________________________

    please visit:
    https://i3d.net


    _______________________________________________

    https://i3d.net
     
  17. Community servers are not obsolete, they just require more work to setup,
    which TF2 already has the infrastructure for. Most modern games are short
    lived so they do not want to spend the time upfront to support community
    servers, but in TF2, the work has already been done.

    Community servers have many benefits over official ones, besides
    moderation, server hardware is one example I am surprised to see you bring
    up. Valve uses commodity hardware. Ive seen official servers lag even with
    only 24 players. There are quite a few communities out there that splurge
    more than Valve would ever bother to, for example, higher tick servers in
    CS:GO. On TF2 this is not so obvious since ticks are capped at 66, but
    there is less stuttering. There is also no ddos protection. Script kiddies
    can just ddos the server before they start losing.

    Even if you dont believe community servers did (and still do) any of this,
    just remember before quickplay defaulted to official servers, the top 100
    servers on gametracker were all community servers. I didnt screenshot this
    because I had no idea Valve would remove community servers from quickplay,
    but I believe people here can confirm this. This is unbiased proof that
    community servers were worth having.

    I can already hear some of you bring up that a few server owners will
    cheat? I dont see how this would be an issue if you kept the original
    quickplay instead of replacing it with casual mode which is useless. Whats
    the point of gaining xp for losing, or recording stats when your team dont
    care about winning? Is this not basically the same reward system we have
    for item drops? As I have said repeatedly, all you need to do to ensure
    that players know what a vanilla experience is like is to force them into
    official servers for the first 10 hours.

    Many community players have told me that they arent moving back to
    official servers when community ones die off. They will just play Overwatch
    instead. If they are forced to deal with teleport griefers and hackers,
    they will do it in a game with better graphics, new characters and
    mechanics, and devs that talk to the community.

    It is baffling that Valve would kill their stickiest player-base built up
    over almost a decade to try to copy Overwatchs success.

    As a reminder, here is how TF2 is doing.

    October 2016 45,910.1
    October 2015 55,256.6
    October 2014 57,977.0

    http://steamcharts.com/app/440

    Community servers are a positive thing for the game. I hope John and Eric
    realize it before the last few die off for good.

    John, if you have any plans to actually make use of the Game Sever
    registration system so that community servers have a reasonable chance at
    getting players, time is running out. For some, it is already too late. The
    last few community servers are dying right now.
    _______________________________________________

    https://i3d.net
     

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